Rise: Hope and Healing Podcast

Just When I Thought It Couldn’t Get Worse: Debra Kaplan and The Hidden Relationship Between Financial Infidelity and Sexual Betrayal | Rise Season 2, Episode 24

Financial infidelity is a hidden but powerful dimension of betrayal that can significantly intensify the emotional, relational, and financial impact of sexual betrayal. Drawing on her unique background in both Wall Street finance and clinical therapy, guest Debra L. Kaplan, MA, MBA, LPC, PACT-II, CSAT-S joins MaryAnn Michaelis, LCSW, CSAT, CPTT as they explore the often overlooked intersection of financial infidelity and sexual betrayal. This episode sheds light on the profound impacts of financial secrecy, hidden accounts, debt accumulation, and violations of agreed-upon financial boundaries on betrayed partners. 
Together, they examine how financial betrayal impacts not only trust and emotional safety, but also financial security, stability, and long-term planning, often leaving betrayed partners overwhelmed and unsure of where to begin.
This episode also offers practical, grounded guidance for early discovery—how to begin identifying financial information, what steps to take first, and how to rebuild both emotional and financial self-trust after betrayal.
Key Topics Covered
Financial Infidelity and Sexual Betrayal Trauma
How financial infidelity often co-occurs with sexual betrayal, creating compounded trauma and a deeper sense of destabilization.
Why Financial Betrayal Feels So Destabilizing
The impact of financial infidelity on safety, security, housing stability, and long-term financial planning.
The Spectrum of Financial Infidelity
From small undisclosed purchases to major financial abuse including hidden accounts, debt accumulation, and misuse of shared assets.
Financial Secrecy vs Financial Privacy
Understanding the difference between healthy financial autonomy and harmful secrecy within relationships.
Financial Abuse and Control Dynamics
How financial abuse may involve restricting access to funds, manipulating accounts, or covertly shifting financial responsibility or debt.
First Steps After Discovery
Practical initial steps for betrayed partners including accessing bank records, gathering financial documentation, and seeking legal or financial consultation when appropriate.
Rebuilding Financial Self-Trust
How individuals begin restoring confidence, agency, and clarity after financial betrayal and relational destabilization.
About the Guest
Debra L. Kaplan, MA, MBA, LPC, PACT-II, CSAT-S, is an author, speaker, and licensed therapist specializing in sexual addiction/compulsivity, sexual and financial infidelity, and relational trauma.
After a career on Wall Street, Ms. Kaplan transitioned into psychology, integrating her financial expertise with clinical practice. She is the author of:
For Love and Money: Exploring Sexual & Financial Betrayal in Relationships
Battle of the Titans: Mastering the Forces of Sex, Money, and Power in Relationships
Coupleship Inc: From Financial Conflict to Financial Intimacy (Lead Author)
She facilitates workshops, trainings, and intensives focused on emotional, sexual, and financial intimacy, helping clients and couples rebuild trust after betrayal.
Contact Information (Guest)
Debra L. Kaplan (she/her/hers)MA, MBA, LPC, PACT-II, CSAT-S✉️ info@debrakaplancounseling.com🌐 www.debrakaplancounseling.com
About the Host
MaryAnn Michaelis, LCSW, CSAT, CPTT is the host of Rise: Hope and Healing After Sexual Betrayal. She specializes in betrayal trauma, sexual addiction recovery, and relational healing using trauma-informed, attachment-based approaches to support individuals and couples rebuilding trust after betrayal.

Braving with Michelle Mays: Attachment, Identity, Belonging, Self-Trust, and the Betrayal Bind | Rise Season 2, Episode 23

In this episode of Rise, MaryAnn Michaelis sits down with Michelle Mays for a deeply grounded conversation on BRAVING, attachment injury, identity, belonging, self-trust, and the Betrayal Bind.
Michelle Mays is a licensed clinician, betrayal trauma specialist, and the creator of the BRAVING Hope® framework, an attachment-based model for healing after sexual betrayal and relational trauma. Her work helps individuals and couples understand how betrayal impacts the nervous system, attachment systems, identity, and the capacity for self-trust.
Together, MaryAnn and Michelle explore how betrayal disrupts not only relationships, but also internal identity structures, emotional safety, and the sense of belonging to self and others. They discuss how the nervous system organizes around attachment injury and why healing requires both relational understanding and internal reconnection.
This conversation draws from Michelle’s clinical work, her Braving Hope® immersive program and training model, and her book The Betrayal Bind: How to Heal When the Person You Love the Most Hurts You the Worst, which offers an attachment-based framework for understanding betrayal trauma and the path toward recovery.
In this episode, we explore:
The BRAVING framework and what it reveals about attachment injury
Why betrayal trauma disrupts identity and nervous system regulation
The concept of the Betrayal Bind and the “impossible relational dilemma” it creates
How self-trust is fractured in betrayal—and how it is rebuilt over time
Why belonging becomes unstable after relational rupture
The role of attachment systems in trauma responses and healing
How Michelle’s Braving Hope® program supports structured recovery
Clinical insights from The Betrayal Bind and real-world healing pathways
Key themes:
Attachment trauma • Betrayal trauma • Identity reconstruction • Nervous system regulation • Self-trust • Belonging • BRAVING Hope® framework • The Betrayal Bind • Emotional safety • Relational healing
About Michelle Mays
Michelle Mays, LPC, CSAT-S, is a clinician, educator, and author specializing in betrayal trauma and attachment injury. She is the creator of the BRAVING Hope® treatment model and immersive program, and the author of The Betrayal Bind: How to Heal When the Person You Love the Most Hurts You the Worst.
Her work integrates attachment theory, nervous system science, and clinical experience to help individuals rebuild safety, identity, and self-trust after betrayal.
Learn more about her work, programs, and resources at: michellemays.com
About the Host
MaryAnn Michaelis, LCSW, CSAT, CPTT, is a licensed clinical social worker and trauma therapist specializing in betrayal trauma, sexual addiction, and attachment injury. She is the founder of the HART Recovery Institute and host of Rise: Hope and Healing After Sexual Betrayal, where she explores the lived experience of betrayal trauma and the process of rebuilding identity, self-trust, and relational safety.
Her clinical work integrates attachment theory, nervous system science, EMDR, and trauma-informed approaches to support individuals and couples in deep relational healing.
About The Betrayal Bind
The Betrayal Bind is Michelle Mays’ foundational book on betrayal trauma and attachment injury. It explores the relational paradox at the heart of betrayal: when the person you depend on for safety is also the source of harm. The book offers an attachment-based framework for understanding trauma responses and provides a pathway toward rebuilding self-trust, emotional regulation, and relational clarity.
About BRAVING Hope®
The Braving Hope® immersive experience is Michelle Mays’ signature program for betrayed partners. It provides structured education and experiential work focused on attachment healing, nervous system regulation, and identity restoration after betrayal trauma.
About Rise
Rise is a podcast exploring betrayal trauma, attachment injury, and the process of rebuilding identity, self-trust, and connection after relational rupture.
Season 2, Episode 23

Betrayal Didn’t Create All of the Pain—It Exposed Old Wounds: Why Healing Requires More Than Understanding the Betrayal with Dr. Karen Strange Rise Season 2, Episode 22

After discovery or disclosure, many betrayed partners find themselves searching for answers. They read books, listen to podcasts, join support groups, and begin learning about betrayal trauma. Yet even with all of that information, many continue to feel overwhelmed, disconnected, and deeply wounded.
In this episode of Rise, MaryAnn Michaelis, LCSW, CSAT, CPTT, and Dr. Karen Strange, LMFT, CSAT, CPTT, explore the deeper work of betrayal trauma recovery. They discuss how betrayal impacts identity, confidence, self-worth, and attachment, and why healing often requires more than simply understanding what happened.
Together, they explore the connection between present pain and earlier life wounds, the role of support groups and therapy, the challenge of integrating head knowledge into heart healing, and the surprising growth that can emerge through recovery.
If you have ever wondered why betrayal feels so devastating—or why healing takes more than time—this conversation offers insight, validation, and hope.
In This Episode
Why Betrayal Trauma Impacts Identity
Betrayal often causes people to question who they are. Many betrayed partners experience significant drops in:
Confidence
Self-worth
Self-trust
Sense of identity
Feelings of attractiveness and value
MaryAnn and Karen discuss how betrayal can trigger long-standing insecurities and attachment wounds that may have originated years before the relationship.
Understanding Core Beliefs After Betrayal
Many betrayed partners find themselves asking:
Was I not enough?
Am I too much?
If I were different, would this have happened?
The episode explores how betrayal can activate deeply rooted beliefs formed in childhood, adolescence, or previous relationships, and why identifying those beliefs is a critical part of healing.
The Disconnect Between What We Know and What We Feel
Many individuals understand intellectually that the betrayal was not caused by their shortcomings. Yet emotionally, they continue to feel defective, unwanted, or unworthy.
MaryAnn and Karen discuss:
The gap between head knowledge and emotional healing
Why insight alone does not resolve trauma
How therapy can help uncover the roots of persistent self-doubt
The process of transforming beliefs at a deeper level
Healing Attachment Wounds and Past Trauma
When Betrayal Reopens Old Wounds
One of the most powerful aspects of betrayal trauma is its ability to expose unresolved emotional injuries.
The pain of betrayal can reactivate experiences from:
Childhood
Family relationships
School experiences
Previous romantic relationships
Earlier attachment injuries
While painful, this process can reveal areas that need healing and provide an opportunity for profound personal growth.
Trauma-Focused Therapies That May Help
Karen discusses the value of working with trained professionals who understand betrayal trauma and attachment injuries.
Approaches may include:
EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing)
Accelerated Resolution Therapy (ART)
Attachment-focused therapy
Trauma-informed counseling
The Importance of Support in Betrayal Trauma Recovery
We Are Wounded in Relationship and Healed in Relationship
Healing rarely happens in isolation.
Karen emphasizes the importance of:
Betrayal trauma support groups
Trusted friendships
Recovery communities
Healthy therapeutic relationships
Supportive relationships can help challenge distorted beliefs and provide encouragement during the healing process.
Why Community Matters
Many betrayed partners believe they are alone in their experience.
In reality, countless others are navigating similar challenges.
Being surrounded by people who understand can:
Reduce shame
Increase hope
Provide validation
Create opportunities for growth
Strengthen resilience
Learning to Trust Yourself Again
One of the most painful consequences of betrayal is the loss of self-trust.
Many partners spent years sensing that something was wrong only to be dismissed, denied, or manipulated.
MaryAnn and Karen discuss:
Rebuilding confidence in your intuition
Giving yourself the benefit of the doubt
Learning to trust your perceptions again
Strengthening self-awareness and personal boundaries
The Role of Self-Care in Recovery
A powerful moment in the conversation centers on a simple question:
"Who's taking care of you?"
For many betrayed partners, self-care has been replaced by caretaking, busyness, and survival.
The episode explores:
Why self-care is often neglected
How busyness can become a coping strategy
The importance of addressing your own needs
Creating space for healing and personal growth
Growth, Healing, and Hope After Betrayal
While no one would choose the pain of betrayal, many people discover unexpected growth through the recovery process.
Healing can lead to:
Greater self-awareness
Stronger boundaries
Increased self-trust
Deeper emotional resilience
A clearer sense of identity and purpose
Recovery is difficult work, but it can also become a pathway to becoming more grounded, authentic, and connected to yourself.
Key Takeaways
Betrayal trauma affects much more than the relationship.
It can impact identity, confidence, attachment, and self-worth.
Healing requires more than information.
Understanding betrayal trauma is important, but lasting recovery involves deeper emotional work.
Support matters.
Therapists, support groups, and trusted relationships can play a vital role in the healing process.
Self-trust can be rebuilt.
Learning to trust yourself again is one of the most important parts of recovery.
Growth is possible.
Even in profound pain, healing can lead to greater strength, clarity, and self-understanding.
Resources Mentioned
Books
The Journey from Abandonment to Healing by Susan Anderson
Therapeutic Approaches
EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing)
Accelerated Resolution Therapy (ART)
Connect With Rise
If this episode resonated with you, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who may benefit from this conversation.
Healing happens in connection, and no one should have to walk this journey alone.

From Sifting Sand to Bedrock: Rebuilding a Foundation After Sexual Betrayal with Kris Cristiano, Rise Season 2, Episode 21

From Sifting Sand to Bedrock: Rebuilding a Foundation After Sexual Betrayal with Kris Cristiano, Rise Season 2, Episode 21
For many betrayed partners, life after D-Day can feel futile, like grabbing at sand—confusing, unstable, and overwhelming, with every thought, memory, or trigger adding to the emotionally unmanageable mess. 
In this episode of Rise, Hope and Healing After Sexual Betrayal, MaryAnn Michaelis, LCSW, CSAT, CPTT, is joined by Kris Cristiano, LCSW, CSAT as they explore what it really feels like to rebuild after sexual betrayal—when your internal world no longer feels stable, predictable, or safe.
Together, they unpack what it means to move from emotional instability into grounding, and how to begin rebuilding a foundation that can actually hold weight as they highlight the following topics: 
 
What Happens After Sexual Betrayal (The “Sifting Sand” Experience)
Emotional confusion and hypervigilance after disclosure
Why betrayed partners feel like they are constantly “on alert”
The shift from trust to questioning everything
Why the nervous system begins scanning for danger
The mental overload of outside opinions
Social media, family, friends, and conflicting advice
Why clarity feels impossible in early recovery
The emotional exhaustion of trying to make sense of it all
Why nothing feels stable anymore
The loss of relational safety
The constant search for something solid to hold onto
The “sand vs. rock” internal experience
Grounding After Betrayal: How Stability Begins
Why confusion is a signal, not a failure
Noticing when the system is overloaded
The importance of stepping back from decision-making in confusion
Simple grounding techniques for nervous system regulation
Feet on the ground, posture, breath
Sensory awareness (5-4-3-2-1 technique)
Returning to the present moment through the body
Why the body must heal before clarity returns
Trauma stored in the nervous system
Why thinking alone cannot solve emotional overwhelm
Moving from survival brain to regulated brain
Rebuilding a Foundation That Can Hold Weight
The “emotional backpack” of betrayal trauma
Why life feels suddenly heavier and harder
Energy depletion and trauma load
Why normal functioning becomes exhausting
What is and isn’t in your control
Partner’s recovery vs. your own grounding
Reclaiming internal agency in a chaotic season
Small steps that rebuild stability
Connection with safe people
Connection with body and senses
Connection with meaning and identity
Moving from Sand to Bedrock
Why healing is not linear
Cracks in foundations are part of rebuilding
Progress vs perfection in recovery
Reconnecting with identity after betrayal
“Who am I now?” after relational rupture
Rebuilding self outside of crisis response mode
Finding what helps you “rise”
What restores energy and regulation
Returning to life with support, not pressure
Conclusion
Healing after sexual betrayal is not about rushing clarity—it is about rebuilding stability from the inside out. When everything feels like sand, the goal is not to force answers, but to slowly return to grounding, connection, and safety in your own body and life.Resources
Grief After Betrayal Impact Scale Survey - please consider taking a few minutes to help with our ongoing research. 
Visit Humanintimacy.com for the Rise Companion Course, Courses on Communication, Boundaries and both Individual and Couple Healing. 
 

Escaping the Prison of Silence After Sexual Betrayal, with Dr. Kevin Skinner, Rise Season 2, Episode 20 the Prison of Silence After Sexual Betrayal, with Dr. Kevin Skinner, Rise Season 2, Episode 20

In this episode of Rise: Hope and Healing After Sexual Betrayal, MaryAnn Michaelis, LCSW, CSAT, CPTT, and Dr. Kevin Skinner, LMFT, CSAT, CPTT, continue their series on rebuilding life after betrayal trauma by focusing on one of the most essential—and most difficult—parts of healing: connection.
After betrayal, many survivors begin questioning not only their relationship, but their entire sense of safety with people. Dr. Skinner shares research showing that betrayal trauma often impacts our perception of trust, causing many to withdraw from friends, family, peers, and support systems. Isolation can feel safer in the short term, but healing rarely happens alone.
Together, MaryAnn and Dr. Skinner explore:
Why betrayal trauma often leads to isolation and avoidance
The nervous system’s fear of vulnerability and connection
How secrecy and carrying trauma alone impacts the body and mind
The healing power of support groups and safe relationships
Common fears and barriers people experience when considering group support
Why not all groups feel emotionally safe—and how to find healthy support
The importance of “parking lot conversations” and authentic connection outside formal group time
How healing happens through validation, attachment, and being truly seen
The role of safe relationships in calming PTSD symptoms and rebuilding trust
Attachment wounds, exclusion trauma, and the brain’s response to rejection
How helping and supporting others in recovery also strengthens our own healing
Dr. Skinner shares powerful clinical stories illustrating how even one safe relationship can begin to regulate the nervous system and shift long-held beliefs of “I’m alone” into “I matter.” The conversation highlights how group healing is often less about the curriculum and more about the relationships formed through shared vulnerability and understanding.
MaryAnn also discusses:
The difference between structured therapy groups and 12-step groups
Why some group formats may feel triggering or invalidating
Reframing harmful “co-addict” or codependency messaging through a trauma-informed lens
The importance of finding people who can witness pain without minimizing it
How collective healing creates growth, insight, and hope
This episode is a compassionate reminder that while connection after betrayal can feel terrifying, safe relationships are often one of the most transformative parts of recovery.
Key Takeaways
Betrayal trauma frequently disrupts a person’s ability to trust others.
Isolation may feel protective, but long-term healing requires safe connection.
Group support can reduce shame, normalize experiences, and provide emotional regulation.
Being witnessed in pain creates attachment and healing.
One safe, nurturing relationship can profoundly impact recovery.
Healing often happens collectively through shared stories, validation, and support.
Resources
Treating Trauma from Sexual Betrayal by Kevin Skinner
Attached by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller
Secure by Amir Levine
Sue Johnson and attachment-based healing concepts
Patrick Carnes recommendation: attend a group multiple times before deciding if it’s a fit
Grief After Betrayal Impact Scale Survey - please consider taking a few minutes to help with our ongoing research. 
Visit Humanintimacy.com for the Rise Companion Course, Courses on Communication, Boundaries and both Individual and Couple Healing. 
Listener Invitation
If you are navigating betrayal trauma and feeling isolated, this episode encourages you to consider reaching out for support. Whether through therapy, group work, trusted friendships, or community, healing often begins when someone says: “I see you. You matter. You are not alone.”
 

Finding Yourself After Betrayal: Identity and the 8 C’s of Self with Kris Cristiano (Rise Season 2, Episode 19)

Finding Yourself After Betrayal: Identity and the 8 C’s of Self with Kris Cristiano (Rise Season 2, Episode 19)
In this episode of Rise: Hope and Healing After Sexual Betrayal, MaryAnn Michaelis, LCSW, CSAT, CPTT and Kris Cristiano, LCSW, CSAT, explore one of the deepest and most painful questions betrayal trauma survivors face:
“Who am I now?”
When betrayal shatters trust, it often disrupts identity, self-concept, confidence, joy, and connection to self. Together, MaryAnn and Kris unpack the healing process of rediscovering your core self while also making space for the ways trauma and life experiences fundamentally change us.
Through personal stories, clinical insight, humor, and practical tools, this conversation explores individuation, differentiation, dissociation, nervous system healing, and reconnecting with authenticity after trauma.
In This Episode
How betrayal trauma distorts identity and self-concept
Why many survivors feel disconnected from themselves
The difference between survival mode and authentic living
Reconnecting with values, interests, joy, creativity, and play
Why healing is not about “going back” but reconnecting with your core self
The importance of nervous system regulation in trauma recovery
How storytelling helps integrate trauma and rebuild identity
Why fun, laughter, and play are essential parts of healing
Understanding dissociation and compartmentalization during betrayal trauma
Practical grounding exercises to reconnect with yourself
Key Themes Discussed
Rediscovering Who You Are
MaryAnn and Kris discuss how betrayal can cause people to abandon parts of themselves in order to survive, maintain relationships, or keep systems functioning. Healing often involves intentionally reclaiming lost parts of identity — even through small things like favorite foods, hobbies, humor, music, creativity, or values.
The Role of Trauma in Identity
Trauma changes the brain, nervous system, emotional responses, and worldview. Survivors may struggle with concentration, joy, emotional regulation, or activities they once loved. The episode emphasizes patience, self-compassion, and understanding that healing takes time.
Nervous System Healing
The conversation explores practices that help regulate the nervous system, including:
Meditation
Yoga
Walking
Singing
Dancing
Play
Safe social connection
Intentionality
Emotional processing
Dissociation and Presence
MaryAnn shares how betrayal trauma can create a dream-like sense of disconnection from reality and self. The discussion includes practical ways to stay grounded and present while also honoring overwhelming emotions and triggers.
Storytelling and Meaning-Making
Kris explains how sharing our stories in safe spaces helps the brain integrate trauma, close emotional loops, and rebuild identity over time.
The 8 C’s of Self in IFS
Drawing from Internal Family Systems (IFS), the episode references the “8 C’s” — qualities associated with the core Self when we are grounded, centered, and not led by fear or trauma parts:
Calm
Clarity
Compassion
Confidence
Courage
Creativity
Connectedness
Curiosity
The conversation explores how healing often involves reconnecting with these qualities rather than abandoning who we truly are.
Memorable Moments
The story of “watermelon” as a symbol of reclaiming identity after decades of self-abandonment
The “what kind of eggs do you actually like?” metaphor from Runaway Bride
Why “fun is part of recovery”
MaryAnn’s reflections on reconnecting with humor and play after trauma
The reminder that healing is not linear, rushed, or one-dimensional
Listener Reflection Questions
Who was I before betrayal?
What parts of myself have I abandoned?
What activities, interests, or values made me feel most alive?
What brings me peace, joy, creativity, or connection today?
What small step could help me reconnect with myself this week?
Resources
The Body Keeps the Score - Bessel van der Kolk
Stephen Covey - Start with the End in Mind
The Color Code - Dr. Taylor Hartman
GABIS https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/Grief-scale
Boundary Basics https://www.humanintimacy.com/course/boundary-basics
Explore guided support and recovery tools: humanintimacy.com
youtube.com/@human-intimacy
 

Reconstructing Faith After Betrayal: Finding Meaning in the Messy Middle with Dr. Karen Strange (Rise Season 2, Episode 18)

In this episode of Rise: Hope and Healing After Sexual Betrayal, MaryAnn Michaelis LCSW, CSAT, CPTT,  is joined by Dr. Karen Strange, LMFT, CSAT, CPTT, for a deeply compassionate conversation about what happens when betrayal trauma shakes not only our relationships—but also our faith, identity, and sense of meaning.
Together, they explore the often unspoken spiritual impact of betrayal and the painful questions that arise in the “messy middle” of healing, including: Why did this happen? Can I still trust my higher power? What do I believe now?
For many betrayed partners, recovery is not just about rebuilding trust with a spouse—it can also involve deconstructing and reconstructing long-held beliefs about God, safety, purpose, and self-worth. This episode holds space for that complexity with gentleness, honesty, and hope.
In this episode, you’ll hear:
How betrayal trauma can impact faith and spiritual identity
Why anger at a higher power is a common and valid response
The experience of feeling “betrayed by God” or spiritually abandoned
How trauma can destabilize beliefs about meaning, safety, and self
The role of grief in spiritual deconstruction and reconstruction
Why the “messy middle” of not knowing is part of healing
How clients begin to rebuild their spiritual foundation after betrayal
The connection between truth, lies, and identity after trauma
What it means to find your “why” in the midst of suffering
Tools and practices discussed:
Writing a letter to your higher power to express grief, anger, and questions
Allowing and honoring emotions instead of suppressing them
Identifying and challenging internalized “lies” after betrayal
Practicing self-compassion during identity disruption
Reframing painful experiences through meaning-making and reflection
Seeking safe relational support during deconstruction and healing
Key themes:
Spiritual deconstruction and reconstruction
Emotional honesty in faith crises
Identity loss and rebuilding after betrayal trauma
Meaning-making in suffering
The importance of safe connection and support
Hope in the “messy middle” of healing
MaryAnn and Dr. Strange emphasize that questioning, wrestling, and even feeling anger toward a higher power are not signs of failure—they are often part of a deeply human healing process. Over time, many individuals find that their faith is not necessarily destroyed, but transformed.
Healing is not linear, and you are not alone in the questions you are carrying.
Resources
"Man's Search For Meaning," Viktor Frankl
GABIS https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/Grief-scale
Boundary Basics https://www.humanintimacy.com/course/boundary-basics
Explore guided support and recovery tools: humanintimacy.com
youtube.com/@human-intimacy
 

You Are Not Your Partner's Mother, Sponsor, or Dumping Ground: Boundaries and Trusting Your Gut with Rhyll Croshaw (Rise Season 2, Episode 17)

You Are Not Your Partner's Mother, Sponsor, or Dumping Ground: Boundaries and Trusting Your Gut with Rhyll Croshaw (Rise Season 2, Episode 17)
In this powerful episode of Rise: Hope and Healing After Sexual Betrayal, MaryAnn Michaelis LCSW, CSAT, CPTT is joined by Rhyll Croshaw, a pioneer in betrayal trauma recovery, author of "What Can I Do About Me?",and co-founder of the SA Lifeline Foundation and SAL12step.org. 
Rhyll brings decades of lived experience, professional insight, and grounded wisdom to a conversation that speaks directly to one of the most confusing and painful parts of recovery after betrayal:How do I hold boundaries and learn to trust myself again when I’ve been conditioned to doubt my gut?
In this episode, Rhyll shares her story of 53 years of marriage and insights learned from 32 years of betrayal trauma recovery work, including: what happens when betrayed partners find themselves over-functioning in relationships—becoming the emotional regulator, caretaker, or unintended “dumping ground” for their partner’s emotions, recovery work, or instability.
At the heart of this conversation is a powerful truth:
You are not your partner’s mother.You are not their sponsor.You are not their emotional dumping ground.
And learning this boundary distinction is a critical part of healing.
In This Episode, We Explore:
Why betrayed partners often lose trust in their own intuition and gut instincts
How external voices (partner, sponsor, family, culture) can override internal knowing
The emotional cost of becoming the “dumping ground” in a relationship
Why boundaries are not rejection—they are role clarification
The difference between supporting someone and over-functioning for them
What it means to practice compassionate detaching
How to recognize when you are carrying emotions that are not yours to hold
Why trusting your gut is a recovery skill, not an automatic ability
Key Takeaways:
Your gut is not broken—it has been drowned out by survival and confusion
Boundaries are about identity, roles, and emotional safety
You cannot be someone’s partner, parent, and sponsor all at once
Compassion does not require emotional over-responsibility
Healing includes learning to say: “This is not mine to carry.”
Powerful Themes in This Episode:
Trusting Your GutAfter betrayal, intuition often becomes clouded by fear, doubt, and conflicting messages. Relearning to listen to yourself is central to recovery.
Boundaries as Role ClarityBoundaries are not punishment or withdrawal—they define what is and is not yours to hold in a relationship.
Compassionate DetachingDetaching does not mean abandoning love. It means staying connected to yourself while releasing responsibility for what belongs to another adult.
Emotional Over-ResponsibilityMany betrayed partners unconsciously become emotional caretakers for their spouse’s recovery or regulation—at great personal cost.
Memorable Quotes & Concepts:
“You are not your partner’s sponsor, mother, or dumping ground.”
“Boundaries aren’t rejection—they’re role correction.”
“Your gut still speaks, but too many voices have been louder than it.”
“Detaching with compassion means I care—but I don’t carry what isn’t mine.”
Hope & Healing Reminder:
Recovery is not just about understanding betrayal—it is about reclaiming yourself.
Learning to trust your gut, hold boundaries, and step out of over-responsibility is not selfish. It is foundational to healing, clarity, and emotional safety.
Resources & References:
What Can I Do About Me? by Rhyll Croshaw
Dopamine Nation by Anna Lembke
SA Lifeline Foundationhttps://salifeline.org
SAL 12 Stephttps://sal12step.org
The Recovery Puzzle 
Recovery Circles Model
Rise online companion course 
Boundary Basics online course
Human Intimacy online courses - communication, relationships, The Intimacy Repair Method
GABIS - the Grief After Betrayal Impact Scale Survey - Contribute to our Resarch! 
Share This Episode
If this episode resonates with you, please share it with someone who may be:
second-guessing their intuition
carrying emotional responsibility that isn’t theirs
learning to set or hold boundaries after betrayal

Holding Boundaries Through Discomfort: Emotions, Pushback and Staying Grounded with Dr. Skinner (Rise Season 2, Episode 16)

Holding Boundaries In Discomfort: Emotions, Pushback and Staying Grounded with Dr. Skinner (Rise Season 2, Episode 16)
In this episode of Rise: Hope & Healing After Sexual Betrayal, MaryAnn Michaelis, LCSW, CSAT, CPTT is joined again by Dr. Kevin Skinner LMFT, CSAT, CPTT to continue the powerful conversation on boundaries—this time focusing on what happens after you set one.
Because the truth is… setting a boundary is only the beginning.
What happens when your partner pushes back?When fear floods in?When you’re not even sure you can follow through?
This episode steps into the emotional reality of holding boundaries—the discomfort, the fear, and the growth required to stay grounded in your values.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
Why boundaries must be rooted in your personal values (your “why”)
The role of homeostasis—and why change in relationships feels so hard
The difference between rigid vs. flexible boundaries
Why you are allowed to change your mind as you learn and grow
What it really means to follow through on a boundary
How to handle pushback, resistance, or defensiveness
The impact of shame filters in the betraying partner
Why boundaries often trigger fear of loss and abandonment
The importance of differentiation—holding onto yourself in the relationship
How to stay grounded when you feel triggered, anxious, or dysregulated
Key Takeaways:
Boundaries are not about control—they are about self-alignment and safety
If a boundary isn’t connected to your values, it will be difficult to maintain
You don’t have to get it perfect—you need to stay aware and adaptable
Discomfort is not a sign you’re doing it wrong—it’s often a sign of growth
You can be both shaky and strong at the same time
Emotional Reality Check:
Holding boundaries may bring up:
Fear (“Will this end my relationship?”)
Anxiety (“What if I can’t follow through?”)
Confusion (“Am I doing this right?”)
Grief (loss of identity, loss of what was)
This is normal.
You are learning a new way of being—like writing with your non-dominant hand.
🛠️ Practical Tools Shared:
Define your boundary by asking: “What is my why?”
Communicate clearly:“If X happens, I will respond by doing Y.”
Prepare for resistance—it doesn’t mean the boundary is wrong
Regulate yourself before having the conversation
Build support systems (friends, therapists, safe people)
Give yourself permission to adjust as you learn
Final Thought:
Boundaries are only as strong as the work you’ve done within yourself.
And even when it feels uncomfortable, uncertain, or scary—you are allowed to take up space, have needs, and honor them.
🔗 Resources Mentioned:
Dr. Kevin Skinner’s work on rebuilding after betrayal
Rebuild Your Relationship After Sexual Betrayal
Boundary Course at Human Intimacy: https://www.humanintimacy.com/link/9yNi7c?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.humanintimacy.com%2Fcourse%3Fcourseid%3Dboundary-basics
www.youtube.com/human-intimacy
Grief After Betrayal Impact Scale Survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/Grief-scale
 Like and Share the Podcast
If this episode resonated with you, please help us reach others who may need support by liking and sharing it. You never know who needs to hear that they’re not alone.

Slow Down, Don’t Torch It Down: Why Attachment Makes Boundaries Feel So Threatening with Dr. Karen Strange (Rise Season 2, Episode 15)

Slow Down, Don’t Torch It Down: Why Attachment Makes Boundaries Feel So Threatening
If boundaries feel overwhelming, confusing, or even dangerous to your relationships—this episode is for you.
In this conversation, MaryAnn Michaelis LCSW, CSAT, CPTT, and Dr. Karen Strange, LMFT, CSAT, CPTT, slow things down to explore why boundaries are so hard, especially in the context of attachment. This isn’t about “just set a boundary.” It’s about understanding the deep, often invisible forces—attachment styles and wounds, fears of loss, early modeling, and unmet needs—that can cause boundaries feel like a threat instead of a healthy tool.
Drawing from Robert Frost's Mending Wall, insights from The Betrayal Bind, and foundational principles in Boundaries, this episode reframes boundaries as something deeply relational—not rejecting.
Because when boundaries feel like they might cost you connection… of course you hesitate. Check out our ttransformative course Boundary Basics online course- designed to help you understand, define and create healthy boundaries for all of your relationships at: https://www.humanintimacy.com/course/boundary-basics. 
What This Episode Explores
The meaning behind “good fences make good neighbors” from Mending Wall—and why boundaries aren’t about keeping people out, but defining space with clarity and care
Why boundaries can feel like risking the relationship instead of protecting it
The very real fear of losing attachment, approval, and connection
How family of origin (FOO) modeling shapes your ability to set boundaries
How abuse and emotional neglect can create “collapsed” or unclear boundaries
Why humans are wired to seek approval and belonging—and how that complicates boundaries
How attachment styles (anxious, avoidant, secure) influence:
your ability to set boundaries
your reaction when others set them
The internal experience of “I don’t even know what I need”
Why confusion is a normal part of boundary work
The difference between external rules vs. authentic, internal empowerment
Why boundaries must be personalized to be sustainable (a core principle echoed in Boundaries)
The fluid nature of boundaries—they can evolve as you heal
A foundational truth emphasized throughout: Betrayal is a boundary violation. Period.
How The Betrayal Bind helps frame boundaries as protective and adjustable, not all-or-nothing
What we can learn from early childhood development (even at age 3) about having a voice without fear of punishment or loss
Why many adults still struggle to say “no” without fear of losing love
The pattern of “waffling” on boundaries and what’s underneath it
How to de-personalize your partner’s reactions to your boundaries
Why your partner’s protest is often not about you
The role of shame in resisting or reacting to boundaries
How addiction and trauma can lead to arrested emotional development
Why boundaries actually help us become more relational—not less
Key Takeaways
Boundaries feel hard because they are tied to attachment, safety, and survival
If you didn’t see healthy boundaries modeled, you’re likely learning a new language
Not knowing what you need is not failure—it’s part of the healing process
Boundaries are not about punishment—they are about protection and clarity
You may “waffle” as you learn—this is normal, not a setback
Other people’s reactions to your boundaries often reflect their own limitations, shame, or lack of tools
As shame decreases, boundaries become less threatening and more collaborative
Like the rebuilding of the wall in Mending Wall, boundaries are something we maintain and revisit over time
Healthy boundaries don’t destroy relationships—they create the conditions for real connection
Reflection Questions
When I think about setting a boundary, what am I afraid might happen?
Do I associate boundaries with loss of connection or safety?
Where did I learn (or not learn) how to have boundaries?
What do I actually need right now—and can I sit with that question without rushing the answer?
Am I reacting to someone else’s boundary as if it’s about me?
 Closing Encouragement
If you feel the urge to “torch it down”—to react, shut down, or avoid—pause.
Slow down.
There’s likely a deeper fear underneath… one tied to connection, safety, and being seen.
As both The Betrayal Bind and Boundaries reinforce, boundaries are not about pushing people away—they are about defining what allows relationship to be safe and sustainable.
Boundaries aren’t here to take connection away.They’re here to help you finally experience it in a healthier way.
Resources
GABIS https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/Grief-scale
Boundary Basics https://www.humanintimacy.com/course/boundary-basics
The Betrayal Bind - Michelle Mays
Boundaries - Drs. Henry Cloud and Townsend
Explore guided support and boundary tools: humanintimacy.com